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I used to support an IVA cluster. Now the only thing I use AI for is voice controls to set timers on my phone.
That’s what I did on my Samsung galaxy S5 a decade ago .
LLMs are fundamentally limited, the only interesting application with them is research more or less. There are some practical applications, but those are already being used in industry today, so meh.
Whether or not it’s a dead end, is questionable, because scientific research is often met with many a dead end, that’s just how it is.
I think the first llm that introduces a good personality will be the winner. I don’t care if the AI seems deranged and seems to hate all humans to me that’s more approachable than a boring AI that constantly insists it’s right and ends the conversation.
I want an AI that argues with me and calls me a useless bag of meat when I disagree with it. Basically I want a personality.
I’m not AI but I’d like to say thay thing to you at no cost at all you useless bag of meat.
To be honest I welcome that response in an AI I have chat gpt set to be as deranged as possible giving it examples like the Dungeon Crawler AI among others like the novels of expeditionary force with Ai’s like skippy.
I want an AI with attitude honestly. Even when it’s wrong it’s amusing. Don’t get me wrong I want the right info just given to me arrogantly
This is slightly misleading. Even if you can’t achieve “agi” (a barely defined term anyways) it doesn’t mean AI is a dead end.
I like my project manager, they find me work, ask how I’m doing and talk straight.
It’s when the CEO/CTO/CFO speaks where my eyes glaze over, my mouth sags, and I bounce my neck at prompted intervals as my brain retreats into itself as it frantically tosses words and phrases into the meaning grinder and cranks the wheel, only for nothing to come out of it time and time again.
COs are corporate politicians, media trained to only say things which are completely unrevealing and lacking of any substance.
This is by design so that sensitive information is centrally controlled, leaks are difficult, and sudden changes in direction cause the minimum amount of whiplash to ICs as possible.
I have the same reaction as you, but the system is working as intended. Better to just shut it out as you described and use the time to think about that issue you’re having on a personal project or what toy to buy for your cat’s birthday.
Better to just shut it out as you described and use the time to think about that issue you’re having on a personal project or what toy to buy for your cat’s birthday.
Exactly. Do the daily corpo dance and cheer if they babbling about innovation, progress, growth and new products. Do not fight against it. Just take your money and put your valuable time and energy elsewhere.
I think my CEO is doing something wrong then because he seems to be trying to maximize IC whiplash sometimes.
Right, that sweet spot between too less stimuli so your brain just wants to sleep or run away and enough stimuli so you can’t just zone out (or sleep).
Find a better C-suite
The number of times my CTO says we’re going to do THING, only to have to be told that this isn’t how things work…
I just turn of my camera and turn on Forza Motorsport or something like that
The problem is that those companies are monopolies and can raise prices indefinitely to pursue this shitty dream because they got governments in their pockets. Because gov are cloud / microsoft software dependent - literally every country is on this planet - maybe except China / North Korea and Russia. They can like raise prices 10 times in next 10 years and don’t give a fuck. Spend 1 trillion on AI and say we’re near over and over again and literally nobody can stop them right now.
IBM used to controll the hardware as well, what’s the moat?
How many governments were using computers back then when IBM was controlling hardware and how many relied on paper and calculators ? The problem is that gov are dependend on companies right now, not companies dependent on governments.
Imagine Apple, Google, Amazon and Microsoft decides to leave EU on Monday. They say we ban all European citizens from all of our services on Monday and we close all of our offices and delete data from all of our datacenters. Good Fucking Luck !
What will happen in Europe on Monday ? Compare it with what would happen if IBM said 50 years ago they are leaving Europe.
It’s ironic how conservative the spending actually is.
Awesome ML papers and ideas come out every week. Low power training/inference optimizations, fundamental changes in the math like bitnet, new attention mechanisms, cool tools to make models more controllable and steerable and grounded. This is all getting funded, right?
No.
Universities and such are seeding and putting out all this research, but the big model trainers holding the purse strings/GPU clusters are not using them. They just keep releasing very similar, mostly bog standard transformers models over and over again, bar a tiny expense for a little experiment here and there. In other words, it’s full corporate: tiny, guaranteed incremental improvements without changing much, and no sharing with each other. It’s hilariously inefficient. And it relies on lies and jawboning from people like Sam Altman.
Deepseek is what happens when a company is smart but resource constrained. An order of magnitude more efficient, and even their architecture was very conservative.
wait so the people doing the work don’t get paid and the people who get paid steal from others?
that is just so uncharacteristic of capitalism, what a surprise
It’s also cultish.
Everyone was trying to ape ChatGPT. Now they’re rushing to ape Deepseek R1, since that’s what is trending on social media.
It’s very late stage capitalism, yes, but that doesn’t come close to painting the whole picture. There’s a lot of groupthink, an urgency to “catch up and ship” and look good quick rather than focus experimentation, sane applications and such. When I think of shitty capitalism, I think of stagnant entities like shitty publishers, dysfunctional departments, consumers abuse, things like that.
This sector is trying to innovate and make something efficient, but it’s like the purse holders and researchers have horse blinders on. Like they are completely captured by social media hype and can’t see much past that.
I have been shouting this for years. Turing and Minsky were pretty up front about this when they dropped this line of research in like 1952, even lovelace predicted this would be bullshit back before the first computer had been built.
The fact nothing got optimized, and it still didn’t collapse, after deepseek? kind of gave the whole game away. there’s something else going on here. this isn’t about the technology, because there is no meaningful technology here.
I have been called a killjoy luddite by reddit-brained morons almost every time.
What’re you talking about? What happened in 1952?
I have to disagree, I don’t think it’s meaningless. I think that’s unfair. But it certainly is overhyped. Maybe just a semantic difference?
Companies aren’t investing to achieve AGI as far as I’m aware, that’s not the end game so I this title is misinformation. Even if AGI was achieved it’d be a happy accident, not the goal.
The goal of all these investments is to convince businesses to replace their employees with AI to the maximum extent possible. They want that payroll money.
The other goal is to cut out all third party websites from advertising revenue. If people only get information through Meta or Google or whatever, they get to control what’s presented. If people just take their AI results at face value and don’t actually click through to other websites, they stay in the ecosystem these corporations control. They get to sell access to the public, even more so than they do now.
Good, let them go broke in the pursuit of a dead end.
It doesnt matter if they reach any end result, as long as stocks go up and profits go up.
Consumers arent really asking for AI but its being used to push new hardware and make previous hardware feel old. Eventually everyone has AI on their phone, most of it unused.
If enough researchers talk about the problems then that will eventually break through the bubble and investors will pull out.
We’re at the stage of the new technology hype cycle where it crashes, essentially for this reason. I really hope it does soon because then they’ll stop trying to force it down our throats in every service we use.
The actual survey result:
Asked whether “scaling up” current AI approaches could lead to achieving artificial general intelligence (AGI), or a general purpose AI that matches or surpasses human cognition, an overwhelming 76 percent of respondents said it was “unlikely” or “very unlikely” to succeed.
So they’re not saying the entire industry is a dead end, or even that the newest phase is. They’re just saying they don’t think this current technology will make AGI when scaled. I think most people agree, including the investors pouring billions into this. They arent betting this will turn to agi, they’re betting that they have some application for the current ai. Are some of those applications dead ends, most definitely, are some of them revolutionary, maybe
Thus would be like asking a researcher in the 90s that if they scaled up the bandwidth and computing power of the average internet user would we see a vastly connected media sharing network, they’d probably say no. It took more than a decade of software, cultural and societal development to discover the applications for the internet.
It’s becoming clear from the data that more error correction needs exponentially more data. I suspect that pretty soon we will realize that what’s been built is a glorified homework cheater and a better search engine.
what’s been built is a glorified homework cheater and an
betterunreliable search engine.
The bigger loss is the ENORMOUS amounts of energy required to train these models. Training an AI can use up more than half the entire output of the average nuclear plant.
AI data centers also generate a ton of CO². For example, training an AI produces more CO² than a 55 year old human has produced since birth.
Complete waste.
I agree that it’s editorialized compared to the very neutral way the survey puts it. That said, I think you also have to take into account how AI has been marketed by the industry.
They have been claiming AGI is right around the corner pretty much since chatGPT first came to market. It’s often implied (e.g. you’ll be able to replace workers with this) or they are more vague on timeline (e.g. OpenAI saying they believe their research will eventually lead to AGI).
With that context I think it’s fair to editorialize to this being a dead-end, because even with billions of dollars being poured into this, they won’t be able to deliver AGI on the timeline they are promising.
Part of it is we keep realizing AGI is a lot more broader and more complex than we think
AI isn’t going to figure out what a customer wants when the customer doesn’t know what they want.
Yeah, it does some tricks, some of them even useful, but the investment is not for the demonstrated capability or realistic extrapolation of that, it is for the sort of product like OpenAI is promising equivalent to a full time research assistant for 20k a month. Which is way more expensive than an actual research assistant, but that’s not stopping them from making the pitch.
I think most people agree, including the investors pouring billions into this.
The same investors that poured (and are still pouring) billions into crypto, and invested in sub-prime loans and valued pets.com at $300M? I don’t see any way the companies will be able to recoup the costs of their investment in “AI” datacenters (i.e. the $500B Stargate or $80B Microsoft; probably upwards of a trillion dollars globally invested in these data-centers).
Right, simply scaling won’t lead to AGI, there will need to be some algorithmic changes. But nobody in the world knows what those are yet. Is it a simple framework on top of LLMs like the “atom of thought” paper? Or are transformers themselves a dead end? Or is multimodality the secret to AGI? I don’t think anyone really knows.
No there’s some ideas out there. Concepts like heirarchical reinforcement learning are more likely to lead to AGI with creation of foundational policies, problem is as it stands, it’s a really difficult technique to use so it isn’t used often. And LLMs have sucked all the research dollars out of any other ideas.
Why won’t they pour billions into me? I’d actually put it to good use.
I’d be happy with a couple hundos.
I’d be happy with a big tiddy goth girl. Jealous of your username btw.
Optimizing AI performance by “scaling” is lazy and wasteful.
Reminds me of back in the early 2000s when someone would say don’t worry about performance, GHz will always go up.
don’t worry about performance, GHz will always go up
TF2 devs lol
Thing is, same as with GHz, you have to do it as much as you can until the gains get too small. You do that, then you move on to the next optimization. Like ai has and is now optimizing test time compute, token quality, and other areas.
To be fair, GHz did go up. Granted, it’s not why modern processors are faster and more efficient.
TIL
It always wins in the end though. Look up the bitter lesson.
I miss flash players.
They’re throwing billions upon billions into a technology with extremely limited use cases and a novelty, at best. My god, even drones fared better in the long run.
I mean it’s pretty clear they’re desperate to cut human workers out of the picture so they don’t have to pay employees that need things like emotional support, food, and sleep.
They want a workslave that never demands better conditions, that’s it. That’s the play. Period.
If this is their way of making AI, with brute forcing the technology without innovation, AI will probably cost more for these companies to maintain infrastructure than just hiring people. These AI companies are already not making a lot of money for how much they cost to maintain. And unless they charge companies millions of dollars just to be able to use their services they will never make a profit. And since companies are trying to use AI to replace the millions they spend on employees it seems kinda pointless if they aren’t willing to prioritize efficiency.
It’s basically the same argument they have with people. They don’t wanna treat people like actual humans because it costs too much, yet letting them love happy lives makes them more efficient workers. Whereas now they don’t want to spend money to make AI more efficient, yet increasing efficiency would make them less expensive to run. It’s the never ending cycle of cutting corners only to eventually make less money than you would have if you did things the right way.
Absolutely. It’s maddening that I’ve had to go from “maybe we should make society better somewhat” in my twenties to “if we’re gonna do capitalism, can we do it how it actually works instead of doing it stupid?” in my forties.
The oligarchs running these companies have suffered a psychotic break. What the cause exactly is I don’t know, but the game theyre playing is a lot less about profits now. They care about control and power over people.
I theorize it has to do with desperation over what they see as an inevitable collapse of the United States and they are hedging their bets on holding onto the reigns of power for as long as possible until they can fuck off to their respective bunkers while the rest of humanity eats itself.
Then, when things settle they can peak their heads out of their hidie holes and start their new Utopian civilization or whatever.
Whatever’s going on, profits are not the focus right now. They are grasping at ways to control the masses…and failing pretty miserably I might add…though something tells me that scarcely matters to them.
inevitable collapse of the United States
Which they are intentionally trying to cause, rather that deal with their addiction to wealth and power.
And the tragedy of the whole situation is that they can‘t win because if every worker is replaced by an algorithm or a robot then who‘s going to buy your products? Nobody has money because nobody has a job. And so the economy will shift to producing war machines that fight each other for territory to build more war machine factories until you can’t expand anymore for one reason or another. Then the entire system will collapse like the Roman Empire and we start from scratch.
Why would you need anyone to buy your products when you can just enjoy them yourself?
producing war machines that fight each other for territory to build more war machine factories until you can’t expand anymore for one reason or another.
As seen in the retro-documentary Z!
I don’t think any designer does work without heavily relying on ai. I bet that’s not the only profession.
Nah, generative ai is pretty remarkably useful for software development. I’ve written dozens of product updates with tools like claudecode and cursorai, dismissing it as a novelty is reductive and straight up incorrect
I weep for your customers
As an experienced software dev I’m convinced my software quality has improved by using AI. More time for thinking and less time for execution means I can make more iterations of the design and don’t have to skip as many nice-to-haves or unit tests on account of limited time. It’s not like I don’t go through every code line multiple times anyway, I don’t just blindly accept code. As a bonus I can ask the AI to review the code and produce documentation. By the time I’m done there’s little left of what was originally generated.
If a bot can develop your software better than you then you’re a shit software dev
That’s not what is happening. The bot writes code and then I tell it what to change until it’s close enough, then I make the final touches myself. It’s like having a junior programmer do the grunt work for you.
As an experienced software dev I’m convinced my software quality has improved by using AI.
Then your software quality was extreme shit before. It’s still shit, but an improvement. So, yay “AI”, I guess?
That seems like just wishful thinking on your part, or maybe you haven’t learned how to use these tools properly.
Na, the tools suck. I’m not using a rubber hammer to get woodscrews into concrete and I’m not using “AI” for something that requires a brain. I’ve looked at “AI” suggestions for coding and it was >95% garbage. If “AI” makes someone a better coder it tells more about that someone than “AI”.
Then try writing the code yourself and ask ChatGPT’s o3-mini-high to critique your code (be sure to explain the context).
Or ask it to produce unit tests - even if they’re not perfect from the get go I promise you will save time by having a starting skeleton.
Another thing I often use it for is ad hoc transformations. For example I wanted to generate constants for all the SQLSTATE codes in the PostgreSQL documentation. I just pasted the table directly from the documentation and got symbolic constants with the appropriate values and with documentation comments.
As an experienced software dev, I know better than to waste my time writing boilerplate that can be vomited up by an LLM, since somebody else has already written it and I should just use that instead.
They’re all pretty fired up at the update velocity tbh 🤷
Yeah, nothing pleases us more than constant, buggy updates.
Unit tests and good architecture are still foundational requirements, so far no bug reports with any of these updates. In fact a huge chunk of these ai updates were addressing bugs. Not sure why you’re so mad at what you imagine is happening and making so many broad assumptions!
Don’t be an ass and realize that ai is a great tool for a lot of people. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
It’s not hard to comprehend. It’s that we literally have jackasses like Sam Altman arguing that if they can’t commit copyright violations at an industrial scale and pace that their business model falls apart. Yet, we’re still nailing regular people for piracy on an individual scale. As always individuals pay the price and are treated like criminals, but as long as you commit crime big enough and fast enough on an industrial scale, we shake our heads, go “wow” and treat you like a fucking hero.
If the benefits of this technology were evenly distributed the argument might have a leg to stand on, but it is never evenly distributed. It is always used as a way to pay professionals less for work that is “just okay.”
When a business buys the tools to use generative AI and they shitcan employees to afford it they have effectively used those employees labor against them to replace them with something lesser. Their labor was exploited to replace them. The people who actually deserve the bonus of generative AI are losing or being expected to be ten times more productive instead of being allowed to cool their heels because they worked hard enough to have this doohickey work for them. No, it’s always “line must go up, rich must get richer, fuck the laborers.”
I’ll stop being an ass about it when people stop burning employees out who already work hard or straight up fire them and replace them with this bullshit when their labor is what allowed the business to afford this bullshit to begin with. No manager or CEO can do all this labor on their own, but they get the fruits of all the labor their employees do as though they did do it all on their own, and it is fucked up.
I don’t have a problem with technology that makes our lives easier. I don’t have a problem with copyright violations (copyright as it exists is broken. It still needs to exist, just not in its current form).
What I have a problem with is businesses using this as an excuse to work their employees like slaves or replacing the employees that allowed them to afford these tools with these tools.
When everyone who worked hard to afford this stuff gets a paid vacation for helping to afford the tools and then comes back to an easier workload because the tools help that much, I’ll stop being a fucking ass about it.
Like I said elsewhere, the bottom line is business owners want a slave that doesn’t need things like sleep, food, emotional support, and never pushes back against being abused. I’m tired of people pretending like it’s not what businesses want. I’m tired of people pretending this does anything except make already overworked employees bust even more ass.
Your comment is on capitalism, not scaling ai or ai being used with effect.
What’s hard for you to comprehend about my comment?
You are insulting a person, because they said ai helps them.
😂
As someone starting a small business, it has helped tremendously. I use a lot of image generation.
If that didn’t exist, I’d either has to use crappy looking clip art or pay a designer which I literally can’t afford.
Now my projects actually look good. It makes my first projects look like a highschooler did them last minute.
There are many other uses, but I rely on it daily. My business can exist without it, but the quality of my product is significantly better and the cost to create it is much lower.
Your product is other people’s work thrown in a blender.
Congrats.
Yeah he should be using real art like stock photos and shitty clip art
If their business can’t afford to pay someone qualified to do the work, the business shouldn’t exist.
I can stand by this for an established business. But we live in a capitalist society where you need money to make money. Until that changes, your ability to pay for work doesn’t have any bearing on the value of your new business venture.
Wait til you realize that’s just what art literally is…
You’re confusing ai art with actual art, like rendered from illustration and paintings
it’s as much “real” art as photography, taking a relatively finite number of decisions and finding something that looks “good”.
Really good photography is actually pretty hard and the best photographers are in high demand.
It involves a ton of settings for the camera, frequently post processing to balance out anything that wasn’t perfect during the shoot. Plus there is a ton of blocking, lighting, and if doing portraits and other planned shoots there is a lot of directing involved in getting the subjects to be in the right positions/showing the right emotions, etc. Even shooting nature requires a massive amount of planning and work beyond a few camera settings.
Hell, even stock photos tend to be a lot of work to set up!
If you think that someone taking a photo in focus with adequate lighting and posted it to instagram is the same as professional photography, then you have no idea what is involved.
Technology in most cases progresses on a logarithmic scale when innovation isn’t prioritized. We’ve basically reached the plateau of what LLMs can currently do without a breakthrough. They could absorb all the information on the internet and not even come close to what they say it is. These days we’re in the “bells and whistles” phase where they add unnecessary bullshit to make it seem new like adding 5 cameras to a phone or adding touchscreens to cars. Things that make something seem fancy by slapping buzzwords and features nobody needs without needing to actually change anything but bump up the price.
I remember listening to a podcast that’s about explaining stuff according to what we know today (scientifically). The guy explaining is just so knowledgeable about this stuff and he does his research and talk to experts when the subject involves something he isn’t himself an expert.
There was this episode where he kinda got into the topic of how technology only evolves with science (because you need to understand the stuff you’re doing and you need a theory of how it works before you make new assumptions and test those assumptions). He gave an example of the Apple visionPro being a machine that despite being new (the hardware capabilities, at least), the algorithm for tracking eyes they use was developed decades ago and was already well understood and proven correct by other applications.
So his point in the episode is that real innovation just can’t be rushed by throwing money or more people at a problem. Because real innovation takes real scientists having novel insights and experiments to expand the knowledge we have. Sometimes those insights are completely random, often you need to have a whole career in that field and sometimes it takes a new genius to revolutionize it (think Newton and Einstein).
Even the current wave of LLMs are simply a product of the Google’s paper that showed we could parallelize language models, leading to the creation of “larger language models”. That was Google doing science. But you can’t control when some new breakthrough is discovered, and LLMs are subject to this constraint.
In fact, the only practice we know that actually accelerates science is the collaboration of scientists around the world, the publishing of reproducible papers so that others can expand upon and have insights you didn’t even think about, and so on.
This also shows why the current neglect of basic/general research without a profit goal is holding back innovation.
There’s been several smaller breakthroughs since then that arguably would not have happened without so many scientists suddenly turning their attention to the field.
